Chinese Weapons

[Woodard]

hmmm.... It's tough to get info on what specific units carried, anything you can get in this area would be especially helpful. I'm going to try and make a list of which ones we have info on, but I think it's only one or two at the divisional level.

[pop401k]

Okay...

Any progress on a "standard" weapon for our purposes? I like the idea of the SKS, but IIRC it's called the Type 56 in Chinese; a bit too late for our time frame.

They did use tons of 91/30 long Nagants, although personally, I don't care much for the "action" on the weapon. The carbine (M-44) is called the Type 53 in Chinese.

[Woodard]

I'd say no for the SKS. A few North Koreans had them when the war broke out, but they weren't common. Bear in mind that most Soviet units still had 91/30's throughout the 1950's. I'd say for North Korean or Chinese (after mid 1951) to use a Soviet made Nagant, full size 91/30 or carbine M44. For early Chinese either a Japanese rifle, or a US one (M1917 being most common). Actual Chinese made weapons were a rarity until the very end of the war.

[pop401k]

Some time back, I scored a 1903 Springfield with a big Chinese oval "brand" stamped/burned into the stock. Even had a shred of Chinese newspaper stuffed under the handguard! Neat piece...maybe I'll use that for early period.

[Woodard]

Found this info in "The Strained Alliance" by Robert Simmons. The info supposedly comes from an 8th Army report from Jan, 18, 1952. Info is for weapons of all calibers. Keep in mind that this is from a 1975 book, so it relies exclusively on American sources.

Breakdown of CPV weapons by time period. I'm surprised to see any Soviet weapons at all in the Nov 50-Jan 51 category.


Breakdown of 3rd (9th Army Group, Fought in the Chosin area) and 4th field army (13th Army Group, Western front).


Bear in mind that these breakdowns are for huge units, not for squads and platoons. For example, 38th and 40th Armies got together and traded up weapons before crossing the Yalu. 38th took all the Japanese stuff and 40th all the US stuff. For a further breakdown of the Chinese units, cut and paste: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Field_armies_of_the_People%27s_Volunteer_Army

[pop401k]

Couple of quick comments: Japanese T-38's are very picky when it comes to blanks...we may want to stick to the T-99's exclusively.

Since we're going to be outgunned at every (tactical) event, why not authorize M-1 (Garand or carbine) for our use?

Likewise, for late war events (after the US equipment was phased out), why not authorize SKS?

I say this because there's nothing that bursts my bubble more than having 20 GI's crushing the 5 Chinese who can't even mount a worthwhile defense because they lack firepower.

Realisitcally, the Chinese wouldn't even make a move with that kind of deficiency; so I believe we need to do something to increase their capacity to fight! Let's discuss this a bit further...

[btswanfury]

Chinese Weapons, a quick and dirty list. Note that in the early war period, the Chinese would have largely been equipped by the Japanese, as they captured 100's of thousands of Japanese rifles from the Manchunko army. They also would have been supplied with whatever weapons the Nationalists had when they were captured during the civil war, largely lend-lease weapons from the Americans and British, as well as German weapons bought in the 1920s and 1930s.

In the mid-war period (say, the summer and fall of 1951), much of the Chinese equipment would have been American and allied, as their supply lines became disrupted and they captured weapons not only from the UN forces, but also from the ROK troops.

In the later-war period, more and more of the equipment would have been Russian as the Soviets became more involved in supplying and supporting the Chinese mission in Korea. Here goes:

Pistols
* Nagant M1895
* Tokarev TT33
* Mauser C96 Broomhandle and variants
* M1911 series
* Webley Mk IV-VI

Small Arms

* Mosin-Nagant 1891, 1891/30
* Mosin M38 carbine
* Mosin M44 carbine
* PPSH-41
* PPS-43
* Type 38 and variants
* Type 99 and variants
* 1903 Springfield
* M1 Garand
* M1 and M2 carbine
* M3 Grease Gun
* SMLE
* No. 4, Mk I
* Sten Gun
* Gew 88
* Gew 98
* Mauser 98K

[lonestarcommie]

Don't forget M1928 Thompsons!

[btswanfury]

Were Thompsons issued in Korea? I know the Nationalists had some and so its conceivable that some might have ended up in CPV hands, but I doubt many were captured from the Americans, as I don't think there were that many there.

[8mmzzs]

You can add:

Pistols:
Inglis High Power

Small arms:
ZB-26
Gew 88=Hanyang 88
Zhong Zheng Shi (aka Chiang Kai-shek rifle or Mauser Standard Modell copy)
Vz.24
.30 M1919

Grenades:
Stick grenade (not the German type!)

German weapons were few.. but the copied stuff were common! The Germans weren't also the only Europeans supplying weapons. The Czech also supplied a few small arms.

The ZZS rifle was very a very common rifle at that time.

[8mmzzs]

Dec 3, 2009 11:47:56 GMT -5 btswanfury said:

Were Thompsons issued in Korea? I know the Nationalists had some and so its conceivable that some might have ended up in CPV hands, but I doubt many were captured from the Americans, as I don't think there were that many there.

I believe the Chinese made copies during WWII.

[lonestarcommie]

Besides the Thompsons that the US sent to the KMT during WWII I think I also read that the Chinese made many copies of the Thompson... here is a link that suggests that the Chinese used them during the Korean War

www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/thompson.htm

This is kinda related, kinda unrelated, but I thought it worth the mention, I talked to a Korean War Marine vet about a month ago who told me he carried a Thompson in Korea, and it was the envy of his platoon, who was always trying to borrow it off him for patrols... I thought that was interesting. I also posted an image of a GI in Korea with a Thompson on the Thompson thread on this site, although I agree with btswanfury, use by the UN forces must have been very, very rare.

[lonestarcommie]

www.thewartourist.com/files/asia/eastasia/china/chinese_CW/chinese_nationalist_with_thompson_SMG.jpg

this is just an illustration, but it shows a KMT with a Thompson

[btswanfury]

Yeah, the picture that image is based off of appears in Osprey's "The Chinese Army: 1937-1949" on page 13. I'll have to scan it.

I guess we can add Thompsons to the list, although I can't imagine they were very common by 1950.

[lonestarcommie]

Hmmmm... well the guys at reenactments who are the exception to the rule usually get on my nerves, so I'd hate to be one of those... I have a semi auto PPS-43 pistol and an M1 Carbine I could bring to the Small Unit 1950 event, but I was leaning towards the Thompson, since it is a full auto blank firing one from SS Room and it would give the CVP a little extra fire power... any opinions on which of those three would be best? Since I'm an out-of-towner, I want to play along with the general rules of the event.

[pop401k]

"General Rules of the Event" I've looked at pics from the last event, and weapons seem to be pretty well mixed: Nagants, Mausers, Garand... all accurate hitorically.

Right now is the time when we want to establish those general rules,wouldn't you say? Therefore let's discuss, as we've been doing, what we as Chinese Forces want and then pose that to the event organizers.

I'm fine with using "captured" US weapons, as I've said before, which is both accurate and a plus on the firepower side of the equation. From your comments, I'd say you agree and I'm hoping the other CCF players would also. Obviously, if you don't have a US wepon, you'd bring your (still historically accurate) Mauser or what-have-you.

Would all of us CCF types agree to this approach? Anyone opposed?

John C.

[btswanfury]

Lonestar: Bring the Thompson. It's certainly period and well worth having for our little Opfor.

The main issue for the firepower of the event is that the GIs really, REALLY want us to be as uniform as possible. This is because of the fact that the Chinese usually assigned their weapons at least at the divisional level and sometimes at the corps or even army level in order to facilitate supply and ammunition consistency.

However, if you only get a handful of guys who are really gung-ho about doing proper Chinese and have the right kit and attitude, but can't shell out $600-800 for a Garand, it seems a shame to tell them not to come, especially when the list of acceptable Chinese weapons is so long and varied.

Personally, the way I see it is this: you can never go wrong with American and (to a lesser extent) British weapons. These could have easily been captured or taken off of dead UN or ROK guys, and as such, ammunition resupply wouldn't be an issue, even if the rest of Comrade Li's platoon all have Arisakas.

The problem is, it really depends on the scenario, and I don't really think it's fair to expect the Chinese Opfor to have American, Japanese, and Soviet rifles for each different impression for each different period in the war.

So what I suggest is that the Chinese Opfor have multi-tierd weapons list. Something like:

Always Acceptable: M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, Thompson, Grease Gun, Sten, SMLE

Early War Preferred: Japanese and German Weapons

Mid and Late Preferred: Soviet Weapons

Thoughts!

[btswanfury]

Duh, even I forgot I had a picture of the Chinese with Thompsons.

[btswanfury]

Pop: Great! All of those would be fine. The Chinese captured Garands, but they also MADE Springfields and Mausers. Woodard has a Chinese Springfield (or, more correctly, an American Springfield with Chinese furniture). It's the most ghetto-fabulous thing in the world.

[8mmzzs]

How much action did the Mauser rifle was seen on the front? It seems to me that this rifle is usually left out and the M-N is mentioned more. There were tons of Mausers left over.

I would say the acceptable Mauser rifles that can be used are the Chiang Kaishek rifles and VZ24. If not, it can be any other Mausers as long as it has a straight bolt.