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Post by caffrey on Mar 29, 2007 14:14:02 GMT -5
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Post by caffrey on Mar 29, 2007 14:30:02 GMT -5
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Post by caffrey on Mar 29, 2007 14:39:06 GMT -5
A comparison and closeup on the Chinese Stick Hand Grenades and Pouches: Here is the photograph from the previous links: www.kmike.com/KWjpg/CCFAssaultInstructions.jpgHere is a photograph from my collection: www.easy39th.com/handgrenades.jpgComparing the two carriers, the one on the left is definately original. The one on the right seems like a 1960s-onward production, seen extensively in the Vietnam War. |
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Woodard
Global Moderator 
Posts: 379
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Post by Woodard on Mar 30, 2007 7:41:05 GMT -5
You need to find a copy of "Handbook on the Chinese Communist Army DA Pam 30-51". It's an awesome reference on all things Chinese from the Korean war, with sections on uniforms and weapons and all. It's tough to find, for some reason. The later editions are worthless for Korea.
Also Chinese numbers 1~10 are easy to learn, a lot of Chinese stuff is date stamped just like US stuff (the earliest date I've seen personally being 53').
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Post by caffrey on Apr 15, 2007 3:42:54 GMT -5
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Post by Glen K on Aug 21, 2007 22:09:02 GMT -5
I ran across a copy published in 1952 that I ordered... I'm hoping that it's just as good, but we'll see. I'll let you know.
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Post by Glen K on Aug 29, 2007 18:40:50 GMT -5
Yep, the version I just paid $20 for is from 1960, even though it was advertised on ebay as being published in 1952.  Nice bright red cover too..... |
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Woodard
Global Moderator
Posts: 379
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Post by Woodard on Aug 30, 2007 7:33:00 GMT -5
The other version I've seen was from the mid 60's, and it wasn't correct. It showed the Chinese wearing Soviet style Pilotkas and had a lot more high speed gear than had been used in Korea. The Chinese and Soviets started getting friendly to each other during the Korean war, and this tended to make the Chinese uniforms more "Soviet looking". For example, Chinese in the KW didn't have rank, you would be addressed by your position i.e. "Assistant squad leader Glen". During the early 60's they adopted Soviet style ranks, then lost them again in the cultural revolution in 66'. By the Mid 60's the Chinese and Soviets hated each other, with fighting breaking out on the border in 69'. The level of friendliness with the USSR had a huge impact on uniforms and equipment, not so much infantry gear but vehicles and commo stuff.
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Post by Glen K on Aug 30, 2007 9:18:39 GMT -5
That's pretty much what this one has, lots of state-of-the-art-ish soviet vehicles, artillery pieces, pilotkas, etc etc. Oh well. I guess I'll keep looking....
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Woodard
Global Moderator
Posts: 379
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Post by Woodard on Aug 30, 2007 16:35:36 GMT -5
Try seeing if your local library can do Interlibrary loan. I work at a college library, and I have all these books I reference sent to me free. I don't get to keep them forever, but hey, that's what a scanner is for.
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Post by Glen K on Sept 28, 2007 10:28:37 GMT -5
Well, I finally got a real copy of the manual... whew! Not what I would call "from a smoke-free home"....  Lots of really good information, though, and great pictures. I knew that early on they were using a hodge-podge, but these pictures really really illustrate that. One has what looks like a platoon working in on a farm with arms stacked at the end of the rows; I was able to count at least SIX different kinds of long arms in the picture.... Thanks for the recommendation, Woodard! |
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Woodard
Global Moderator
Posts: 379
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Post by Woodard on Oct 1, 2007 9:16:29 GMT -5
Yea, the copy I had was checked out from a library, I really need to break down and buy that one.
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Chicommie
Corporal 
"Proud Ground Pounding Private" in all my impressions!
Posts: 29
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Post by Chicommie on Dec 31, 2007 16:48:07 GMT -5
My fellow historians & reenactors,
I've been researching and scouring the internet on information about the Chinese Army at the time of Korea and it's my opinion that "Hong Kong Kieth's" Chinese Civil War uniforms (especailly the khaki version) are MORE than acceptable for use in Korea, especially a 1950 scenario, perhaps a late war scenario (such as 1953) a bit of a different uniform could be debated. Recently I have purchased and own some fine books on the subject such as; "The Chinese Red Army Since 1949" By Gerard H. Corr, 1974 and "20th Century Military Uniforms" By Charle McNab has an excellent Chinese section as well. Here's how I come to my 'opinion' and that is, Mao Tse Tung's Chinese Revolutionary Army was a massive force of over 500,000 strong and during it's Civil War with the government forces they imposed steady defeat one after another until they achieved victory in 1949. All the books and sources I can find cite that they had three predominant supply sources: either homemade or cottage industry, captured from Nationalist stocks & soldiers, or Japanese WWII surplus supplied in bulk from the Soviet Union in 1946. So only after ONE year into the new Communist Chinese State they were in combat once again in North Korea, all logic would dictate that these guys were wearing that same stuff! Heck, even the industrial capacity that the ole' USA had at that time, our boys were still wearing for the most part a WWII kit! The numbers that the Chinese (in a very short period of time) uniformed during the conflict and sent over the border is staggering...I have even seen some figures list as high as 1.5 million men! You know numerous Chinese formations were still using old Nationalist stocks, especially at the beginning...they had too, just to clothe that many people is mind boggling! To further my point on pages 46 and 47 of McNab's book I can see the tunic of several soldiers and I can see all the features of the coat that HKK sells, I'm sure they are wearing Nationalist uniforms. Corr's book has numerous photo's with just about every uniform combination (and civilian stuff) imaginable, even in the same group photo or formation. I think (once again in my opinion) that the HKK tunic set and pants should be allowed as 'acceptable' for use in Korean War reenacting, especially for a summer weight uniform. I would love to hear any opinions or discussion one way or the other, let me know what you guys think!
sincerely, Patrick Hubble, new dude putting his Chinese Red Army impression together...
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Woodard
Global Moderator
Posts: 379
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Post by Woodard on Dec 31, 2007 17:21:17 GMT -5
I think the Khaki ones are OK, personally, but I have not seen any pics of anyone wearing the old Blue-grey stuff. I seem to remember hearing that the PLA switched to Khaki towards the end of the Civil war, like in '48 or '49. I want to say my source for that is the Osprey book on the Civil war but I'm not 100%. Color and exact cut varied pretty widely, as no uniform factories existed until 1955 and during the Civil and Korean wars everything was made in workshops and cottage industry type setups. Of course the Nationalists weren't exactly standard either... Even if the CPV represented the best the Chinese could muster in 1950 they still would have been pretty diverse.
I think that until someone starts making the type 50 uniforms, the Hong Kong Keith Nationalist uniform or a Soviet M-36 pattern gymnistoika with khaki straight legged pants (compare with the "1952 summer uniform" pic in the thread about the Army handbook on the Chinese) are the best bet. I got one of Keith's nationalist caps as well, I may see if I can do a little stitching and make it into a North Korean cap.
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Woodard
Global Moderator
Posts: 379
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Post by Woodard on Jan 1, 2008 10:21:42 GMT -5
I thought I'd post this pic, since #1 I like these two pictures, and #2 in addition to being good close ups of the padded stuff,they show what this guy was wearing underneath. looks like some kind of possibly civilian shirt, with some kind of uniform shirt over it.  |
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Woodard
Global Moderator
Posts: 379
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Post by Woodard on Jan 1, 2008 11:10:37 GMT -5
Also, Pop401k sent in this color plate of a Chinese soldier in the first part of the war.  He has the Chinese issue padded uniform, two crossed bandoleers that are shorter than the one big one that Hong Kong Keith sells. Looks like he has his rice bandoleer as well. He was one of the luck ones in that he has on some decent boots instead of the flimsy sneakers a lot of guys wore. By most accounts Chinese troops got decent socks, both to fight the cold and to allow the troops to march. The leather belt is optional, but common, as are the puttees. The leather belts look very similar to Japanese ones, and may well have been. They often have the flat, slightly outwardly curved buckles that the Japanese ones use. |
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Post by pop401k on Jan 2, 2008 13:45:40 GMT -5
Okay...go easy on me here.
Since we're trying for uniformity here, with no vendors as a source of supply, we're pretty much left to our own devices I think.
May I suggest that we check out Sportsmans Guide; put in "HQ" for the catalog and do a search for Czech. There are 2 things I thought might get us going...
the M-85 shirt/jacket (with a little modification it could make a nice summer weight tunic) and the trouser liners...they look quilted and have a cotton exterior.
I'm not trying to promote farbism, but without any sources for uniforms, at least this will have us all looking the same (less whatever pieces someone might already have).
Thoughts, comments?
Regards,
John C.
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Post by pop401k on Jan 2, 2008 13:50:20 GMT -5
...Sorry...
Also, the expense here is minimal, so if/when we do find a proper vendor, we won't be stuck with a $200.- set of rags.
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Woodard
Global Moderator
Posts: 379
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Post by Woodard on Jan 2, 2008 14:22:05 GMT -5
I saw those Czech liners you mention, in the catalog they had vertical lines of stitching, like the "sausage roll" suit the guy at the top of the page is wearing. When I went online to order them, the picture had diagonal square stitches. I've seen some Korean stuff like that (North and South), but I haven't ordered it. I'll look at the shirt. Right now the Russian padded uniforms aren't that tough to get, they made them until the late 70's/early 80's. I haven't dealt with www.frontofRussia.com, but I hear good things and I believe Chicommie is awaiting his order and will report back on his customer service and order times. Basically they have warehouses full of them in Russia and Ukraine, it's the shipping that gets you. |
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Chicommie
Corporal
"Proud Ground Pounding Private" in all my impressions!
Posts: 29
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Post by Chicommie on Jan 2, 2008 17:12:59 GMT -5
Group,
Yes, Bren is correct I have ordered a padded suit and a
ushanka (#3C) from "Front of Russia", via Western Union.
Alex (the owner) responded quickly and at least confirmed
by e-mail that he had received the money transfer. So Lord
willing and keep your fingers crossed that he's a reputable
dealer and that I get my stuff! I'll report immediately on the
quality and post photo's on the items when I receive them.
sincerely, Patrick Hubble
Lynchburg, VA
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Nice bright red cover too.....
Lots of really good information, though, and great pictures. I knew that early on they were using a hodge-podge, but these pictures really really illustrate that. One has what looks like a platoon working in on a farm with arms stacked at the end of the rows; I was able to count at least SIX different kinds of long arms in the picture.... Thanks for the recommendation, Woodard!