Commonwealth Division

[foxholetom]

I've been doing some digging into the Commonwealth Division again, and I've been happily surprised, once again, to find that the post-WW2 stuff I used to want to get rid of, but couldn't, is Korean War stuff. My latest find...P49 trousers for British soldiers.

My latest web find...enjoy:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYNf5v2VK0c

[1bwsean]

Great job finding this, Tom. I recently did my first timeline event as 1st Black Watch in 1952 and will be posting some photos on the board.

Cheers,

Sean

[foxholetom]

Sean,
Very cool stuff! I noticed in recent reading that each Commonwealth battalion only spent a year there, not unlike current Iraq deployments. Interesting stuff. I also dug out enough stuff from boxes for a veeeeery basic Commonwealth impression.

[ben]

A neat picture off of Digger History. Does anyone know how common windproof camo was in Korea?

[1bwsean]

Thanks, Tom...it was very interesting doing the research for the binder I made up. Ben, I've seen a few photos of British troops wearing windproofs...but I've also seen BD, KD, JGs, and even US gear! Seems to be it was dependent on the weather and what was in supply at the time!

[foxholetom]

Quite a rag tag bunch.

I still have in my collection P49 trousers, war aid pattern BD (gonna get an original P37 BD jacket I think), boots, P37 leggings, cap comforter, and of course, an Enfield and a ton of stripper clips. So in short, some webgear, and I'm good. Oh, and like, 3 greatcoats I could never get rid of. Ever.

[Woodard]

Question for you commonwealth types... Were the 37 pattern and 44 pattern web sets ever mixed? I remember from my Brit days that British troops seemed much more conscious of what they wore (try asking a US vet if he had a M1928 or an M1944 pack and be prepared for a puzzled look). I have about half of a 44 set, and loads of 37 pattern gear.

[1bwsean]

I've never seen the two types of webbing mixed together, though you do see full sets of 37 and full sets of 44 in Korea.

[foxholetom]

My long ago research would concur.

Also, I remember something about British regulars still wore the P37 BD and territorials were getting the P49 first. However, its a long, long time ago when I read that, so I could be wrong.

[1bwsean]

Tom,

The photos I've seen of 1/BW seem to indicate their BD was 49 pattern...but 1/BW also arrived in Korea only in May of 1952, so earlier on, that may have been true.

[burg]

I'm game to play...can do a A&SH 1950/51 real easy...

[royal7monocle]

From what I've seen, the Wind Proof smocks and trousers were worn as cold weather items. Of course they could not cope with the harsh winter weather of Korea. I'm still at a loss as to what cold weather kit the British had. I've seen photos of US issued items and British made items. I guess it depends totally upon the time frame and unit. But back to the question of wind proofs. Yes, they were wore and mostly during the Fall and early Spring months. (at least that is from photos that I've seen). From 1951 on P'49 BD seems to be the rule for British troops. On a side note, combat photos of British troops in the field do not show the use of sleeve insignia. Curious yes, but that could really help us as re-enactors if our combat kit is "slick sleeved". The only thing to determine the unit would be headgear and capbadges. I look forward to hearing what other people have learned about this interesting time period.

Also, all my research has been on British troops. I have no clue as to Aussie, Canadian, Indian, NZ, Belgian or Eithopian troops.

cheers,
Stephen Keller

[Woodard]

IIRC the osprey book on Korea, despite being one of the poorer ones, has a small writeup about British winter kit, I think they mention that they had such poor preperation for the first winter that a whole new line of gear was designed and issued (same as US with the M51 gear). Not much, but mabey a start.

[stu]

If we could get enough people would there be interest in getting some commonwealth division patches made up?

The patches are a major pain in the rear to find but I know small patch lots could be made up, there's even a place near DC that specializes in repopping unit patches (although the price could be as high as $25 per patch if there's little interest)

[Woodard]

Were these the printed style or the embroidered style?

[stu]

embroidered it seems for the most part, although there looks to have been A LOT of variation.
www.diggerhistory.info/pages-badges/cloth-patches2.htm

The square "British Forces Commonwealth" seem to have been worn by any commonwelath forces outside of the division proper. Anyone outside the division's Order of Battle or members in the order of battle acting on detached duty.

It's the lighter blue "commonwealth" patches worn in the division.

[arvp]

As a newcomer to this forum (but not to British equipment of the Korean War) permit me to clarify some of the issues raised.
27 Brigade (A&SH, Middx) came from Hong Kong to Korea dressed in tropical kit. Come the winter they "obtained" U.S. M43 uniform.
29 Brigade (Glosters, RUR, RNF) arrived wearing BD of various patterns - not so-called 37 pattern but late war utility, '46, '47 and'49 patterns. When winter arrived they were issued with WW2 cold weather kit consisting of long woollen underwear, string vests, heavy wool jerseys, leather jerkins and camo windproofs.
By the second winter of the war 1951/52 most UK troops had been issued with the new combat uniform.
As regards webbing; 1944 pattern didn't arrive till about 1951 (with 29 Bde), replacing the 1937 patt - and items were mixed. Particularly the 37 patt e-tool carried on the 44 patt equipment.
As many of the British troops in 1950/51 were reservists and as much cross posting between battalions occurred, there was a very eclectic mix of uniform and kit being worn.
Badges are a separate matter!

Allen

[Mk2 Vickers gunner]

Well done ! Very good synopsis Sir. Uniformity had to be quite a confused matter due to the exigencies of the urgent deployment that was necessary; they literally arrived with what they had.

I think the thing that most squared away issues on the insignia question for me, is that the Coronation of the Queen didn't happen until early 1952 (?, yes ?) so Kings crown and Queens crown on insignia also went thru an evolution. Feel free to correct me on this if you know, Lads.

Units didn't immediately receive sets of insignia until they were rotated out of Korea. Once a unit was out of hostilities the RSM's likely went to work on uniformity & had best BD standards developed, proper insignia displayed on the troops and so on.

Cheers, Johnnie, 1 Mx MG Bn, 15 Scottish Div.

[arvp]

King died 1952, Coronation was in June 1953; so Queen's crown badges will have to be late Korean War - and, of course, old KC badges will not have been replaced immediately. The UK was still in a period of austerity.
As you say, once out of the line the British get back to smartness and uniformity.

Allen

[Mk2 Vickers gunner]

Bravo Sir ! Tip of the Tam to you.

Cheers, Johnnie, 1 Mx MG Bn, 15 Scottish Div.