Outpost/Bunker Construction

[John Abshire]

Gentleman,

We have been granted access from the Land owner at the event site to build permanent fighting positions on the land. At the event we will find the perfect location for out outpost and bunkers and I will be putting together some work weekends. Those who take place in the Work weekends will get a discount off their registration for their hard work. Now to build a good bunker we will need building materials like Sand bags, beams and timbers to support walls and ceilings,commo Wire, shovels (I just assume use modern shovels) and wood planks to put on the ground in the trenches. This will of course cost money and I am considering after this event starting work on the bunkers.

To Give you a clue, Korea will not be the only era reenacted at this location. We will do WW2 Events, Korean War Events, French Indo-China events, Vietnam Events, and as far as ww2 is concerned...we are talking MTO, and PTO events instead of just ETO which is so over done.

Those who are interested leave your name and contact info on this thread so we can use this to establish our build team.

Also If you want to use a build weekend as a training weekend we can do that as well. I know open the floor to cuss and discuss the idea.

**TOM** I want to make this for MTO

[foxholetom]

You found a home in the army....

Yeah, I'm going to start trolling the research material for a good outpost to use as our model.

[yalu]

I would think the US guys used a lot of pre fab stuff-shipping crates and ammo boxes, but that is a guess from a guy who made his bed from pallets and 120mm crates

[John Abshire]

I would imagine that would be correct Yalu, I mean I dont see any reason why they wouldnt use things that they had handy. The issue is expense, they used it cause they had it handy and it was free...if we use it we have to find it, buy it, and then set it up and in a few replace it due to weather and wear. Not only that but if we found 50s dated ammo crates and such do we really want to use them to build a bunker when we know they will eventually rot away. Perhaps we could make our own at a cheaper cost than tracking down and using correct ones.

[Chicommie]

Greetings John,
Please count me in on the site prep or the
construction team, I live so close to the site
it doesn't make any sense for me not too!
Pehaps I could start on the Communist side
and get a few trenches started? Maybe if we
go in together we could rent a "ditch witch"
and get the bulk digging labor knocked out?
That's if the land owner is cool with a few
trenches? I'm a local mortician or funeral director
in Lynchburg and I know a few grave digging/vault
company's that own backhoes. I'm almost certain
I could get a good deal for us. (perhaps just gas
costs?) Anyways, let me know what you think, you
obviously know the temperment of the land owner
best.
regards, Patrick Hubble

[ssgtsattilaro]

Good evening to all. I won't be able to help with any work weekends on the site because Danville is about 12 hours or so away and once I got there I would be of no use to anyone. Sorry I can't be of any help. Tony

[stu]

I've got about a dozen railroad ties if someone actually wanted to haul them from northern MD to southern VA. They'd make good bunker material.

[jonprince]

admin said:

Gentleman,

We have been granted access from the Land owner at the event site to build permanent fighting positions on the land. At the event we will find the perfect location for out outpost and bunkers and I will be putting together some work weekends. Those who take place in the Work weekends will get a discount off their registration for their hard work. Now to build a good bunker we will need building materials like Sand bags, beams and timbers to support walls and ceilings,commo Wire, shovels (I just assume use modern shovels) and wood planks to put on the ground in the trenches. This will of course cost money and I am considering after this event starting work on the bunkers.

To Give you a clue, Korea will not be the only era reenacted at this location. We will do WW2 Events, Korean War Events, French Indo-China events, Vietnam Events, and as far as ww2 is concerned...we are talking MTO, and PTO events instead of just ETO which is so over done.

Those who are interested leave your name and contact info on this thread so we can use this to establish our build team.

Also If you want to use a build weekend as a training weekend we can do that as well. I know open the floor to cuss and discuss the idea.

**TOM** I want to make this for MTO

I've always wondered with that picture what the set up with the jerry can and tube was as it seems to be going inside, maybe feeding fuel into the stove? Real little home-maker though.

Look forward to seeing you handy work, stuff like PSP matting seems to have been fairly common from WW2 right up to Vietnam so wouldn't look out of place for bunkers, would be great to have a full-on static trench set up to work with though, properly made fighting positions and weapons pits going back to well dug in and snug C.P.'s, even just maintaining and repairing positions would be a good job of work if done 'in character', would give a good idea of what life for many in the later part of the war was like. You lot keep his up and I'm seriously going to have to consider relocating to the U.S. or at least a long reenactors holiday ;D

[stu]

I don't think that can is fuel since there's a stack of wood next to the door. Maybe it's his indoor plumbing?

Are those top stove pipes shell casings?

[jonprince]

Hadn't noticed that, I think the whole pipe might be shell cases, clever little chap he was!

[pop401k]

I just read a passage somewhere in the last few days, talking about a "Yukon" stove?? IIRC... and yes, that is a fuel can for it. They specifically talked about a 5 gal. can of kerosene with hose. Seems somebody filled their can with gasoline and blew the shack to bits.

[John Abshire]

Hm, not sure if thats what that is unless he field modded a gas can. I should think if that can was supposed to be used with Kerosene only it would be marked with a K instead of a G...or I can see some dumb grunts making that mistake and filling it with Gasoline and having a negative reaction.

[jonprince]

Going by the shack he seems like the field-modding type One end of the hose certainly seems to be attached to the bottom of the can as if it's intended to act like some sort of supply, but I can't seen exactly what happens to the other end. Given it's position and potential use this chap must be very, very clever or really, REALLY dumb! I also remember reading about a similar 'improvised but official' system used by the British for field cooking, it basically drip feeds fuel from a jerry can into an open tray where it's burnt and provides a heat source, think it was for a field oven, but it just struck me as an accident waiting to happen, large can of fuel effectively leaking onto a naked flame Another good one though was punching a small hole in the side of a jerry can, laying it on it's side with a small amount of fuel inside (hole facing upwards) and building a small fire under it to heat the fuel and turn it to vapour, this then comes out of the small hole and can be ignited to get a strong flame, apparently you just need to make sure the fire underneath isn't too big or the pressure builds up and the whole things explodes!

[zb30]

Is he drinking a beer?!?

[cco23i]

As cold as it looks I'd be drinking something a little stronger to ward the cold off! ;D

Scott

[stu]

Hey, maybe we're looking at it all wrong. Since the shack behind it is a much more traditional style maybe that's just the latrine. You've got the stove pipe to vent it, water jerry can and hose can let you wash your hands. I mean heck, look how he's sitting! ;D

[outpostharry]

It looks like they were photographing somekind of makeshift still in the above photograph. That shack wouldn't survive one mortar hit.

I too have been looking at Outpost Bunker and trench construction. The main ingredients for Command Posts, and bunkers, appear to be 2.5 meter lengths of timber, rought-cut lengths of tree, sandbags, earth and rocks from the ground that's been dug in to.

They used to put the 2.5m beams over the hole they had dug next to the trench. Then they would cover it up with two or three layers of sandbags. If the entrance was too big they'd make it smaller with sandbags. They'd use two tree stumps for a basic door frame for the bigger bunkers. Then for the personal bunkers and the machine gun bunkers they'd throw earth and rocks all over the sandbags (to disperse mortar hits).

Have been trying to locate a source of cheap sandbags. Found this:
www.esandbags.com/b.html
I understand that the ends were just flopped/folded over and that they weren't tied up as shown in the photo on that webpage.

Has anybody got a better source of cheap burlap sandbags?

Sometimes they would locate machine guns (usually 30 caliber or BAR) on top of the bunker and lay low with sandbags.

The depth and width of trenches varied. Depth varied depending on how deep they could dig, and also how deep they needed to dig. Most trenches were about shoulder-width wide. Most open bunker doors you had to walk through sideways to get in.

[jonprince]

I'd assume said hooch den was some way behind the lines as both shelters visible seem to have been made as comfortable as possible/'winterised' so I'd assume it's a rear area, troops on a rest period or a rear echelon. That said it was not unknown to construct some sort of semi-permenant shelter over the top of a fox-hole of trench, or dig out under tents and shelters to get decent head room if there was some threat of indirect enemy attention from artillery or air. The chap looks fairly relaxed so the enemy threat could well be minimal.

Sand bags are indeed easy to just twist the open end and lay it under the bag as you build rather than tie it off, especially if your going to need to empty them when you move one. Field positions depend to a greater extent on their role, situation and location, they vary hugely in depth and complexity with the length of time and nature of their use. The later stages of the war demonstrate this. Large, deep and strongly built positions that show men spent a good deal of their time fairly static in fatigues filling sand bags and trying to make their lives at the front that bit more comfortable. Units are trained to constantly improve and mantain positions as time and rescources allow, there's a set process of locating and establishing positions. What might start as a line of fox holes and weapons pits, will get improved and reenforced, support weapons will be factored in to develop a defensive fire plan, stuff may even be re-sighted if it's found that a site is not ideal for the purpose, even if this in practice this means worse ground and more difficult digging, a better arc of observation or fire is more important than sore hands or wet feet. It's the job of Officers and NCO's to read and asses the ground, place their men and weapons, assign arcs and make best use of what they have available. The importance of all round defence was shown very early on in Korea as it was not often possible to establish a single defence line/MLR as had been more the case in WW2 and off-course WW1. It was often the case due to topography and the fluid nature of much of the early fighting that defensive localities/'Hedgehogs' were established with all-round ability to dominate ground if not actually occupy it with men. As had been found before in places like Italy, Africa and the Pacific during WW2 or later in Vietnam and even Afghanistan where it is not possible or even necessary to bisect an entire country neatly in two with a line or a number of lines stretching from coast to coast, 'us' one side 'them' the other. A few accounts I've read infact mention that strongly built and mutually supporting defended localities were very effective in defeating or at least inflicting greater comparative casualties on an attacker. Even extreme cases like the British on the Imjin River, whilst a defeat it was still extremely costly for the attackers as long as the defence held and made them smash themselves against a wall of defensive fire.

One major factor with 'fighting' positions off-course is that no matter how big and deep it's dug you still need to be able to fight effectively from them. You could dig the deepest hole in the world, encase it in all the timber and sandbags you could find, get a bed and stove set up but if you can't observe and fire out you may aswell just sit and make coffee until you get a burp gun stuck into your ribs. For CP's, shelters and aid-posts on the other hand protection is a major factor, providing they are still accesible as and when required. It's all a question of applying training and experience to the job you have to do and where you have to do it.

[digger]

Hi Fellas,I am new on here did you get any furtheer with the bunkers etc ? have you any pics I would love to see some reegards Dig.