Form a unit for the VA tactical?

[humbermk4]

Hi folks,
new to this list but not to British reenacting. For WW2, I do 15th (Scottish) Reconnaissance regt along with about 20 others.

Most of us are in the VA/MD/ PA area and some of us would be interested in making up a new impression for the local event.

First that comes to mind is the Glorious Glosters. I had privately collected the badges for that on my own, but open to see what else people would want to do. We have some lads in 15 Recce that are Canadian and might want to go that route.

Anyone serious about putting a kit together for this?

Sadly, we don';t have the bren carriers in the club anymore, although we might get one out. We might be able to get one Dingo out for the Feb event. If this goes well, we might get the C-15 and the other armour for next year. (other Dingos and Daimler A/C and the Humber A/C.)

Hmmmm. with those out we might need to do a Cav Regt as the Recce was gone before the KW. Will have to do some homework... Not sure what armoured units were there.

Any recommendations?

Cheers,
Jim Burrill
1926 Allentown Rd
Hatfield PA 19440
215-721-8967

[foxholetom]

Jim,
The intent of the event we're holding in February is to portray a homogeneous unit, specifically elements of a U.S. Army infantry company with attachments. The specific unit in this case is the 25th Infantry Division, regiment still to be determined.

With that in mind, we are excluding impressions that do not fit with this, including airborne, Marines, and other United Nations troops. This would therefor exclude British and Commonwealth Divisions.


To further explain what we're trying to do with the events we're holding, is base our scenarios on specific incidents and units. This means we may be doing 25th Infantry Division, November 1950 for this event, and 1st Marines, 1953, the next time we host an event.

On behalf of myself and the other event planners, I want to let you and your group know that we very much like the idea of holding an event that Commonwealth soldiers can attend, down to the event being Commonwealth only. Several of us have already begin piecing together Commonwealth kits, or already have them. However, for the event in Feb, it will be 25th Infantry Division impressions only.

[foxholetom]

I did some quick research on the Commonwealth's 27th Brigade during the fighting along the Chongchwon River in November 1950. The three units of the brigade were one battalion each of the Royal Australian Regiment, the Argylls (who apparently DID have pipers with them ;D), and the Middlesex regiment. Reference is also made to the 19th Reconnaissance Co. When the Chinese offensive struck, they were in Corps reserve.

After moving south to Kunu-Ri, the Argylls were sent to make sure the road to Pyonyang was still clear, the Middlesex was sent on an unsuccessful attempt to clear the escape route of the 2nd Infantry Division, and the RAR was sent to cover the withdrawal of units of the 1st Cavalry Division. Later, the entire brigade would be assigned to the 1st Cavalry until relieved by the newly arrived Commonwealth 29th Brigade.

This doesn't put any units within the 25th Infantry's zone of control at any point during the timeframe of the event. However, I did come across some interesting engagements that the Commonwealth were in. I will talk to the other guys planning the event, and see what we can do about making a Commonwealth event happen this year.

[yalu]

You also have the Chosan(sp) run in which Marines, Army and UN forces were running like cockroaches to avoid the rightful and humane justice of the freedom loving PVA and the peaceful Korean people.

[Iain dhub]

Jim...
We've already got a couple of guys doing 1st Bn The Black Watch for our Soldiers of Scotland Timelines... see i15.photobucket.com/albums/a385/Iain51hdbw/Timeline-1.jpg (right-middle front) for one of the boys.
Aye,
Iain

[John Abshire]

I personally am 100% for having a Commonwealth only event, and we can set it up much like we set up the GI events, pick a specific unit and base the impression on the time frame, and the scenario. You see what we are avoiding is the same thing that happens at WW2 events, and the main reason all of the members of the event staff dislike most ww2 events, is that everyone can show up as whatever you want...they pick HUGE battles like The battle of the Bulge, or Breakout at Anzio...and this opens the door for all sorts of impressions, which is pretty much incorrect as all get out. When you are in a division, especially in the large formations of ww2 and Korea, you would only really see members of your unit and division. It would be uncommon to see members of another division let alone another nationality. It really takes away from the authenticity of an event when you arent part of one homogeneous unit. Another reason we are doing things like this is to further push reenactors at least in the Korean War era, to do 1st Person Impressions, and the 1st step in a 1st person impression is to get rid of any egos and attachments we have to specific units. I have seen world war two reenactors who outright refused to comply with authenticity regulations at ww2 events because "By god we are the 101st and I dont give a damn if this is an MTO event, im doing my Easy company impression!!" and the event staff of course caved to their demands because in the world of main stream (Main scream) reenacting...authenticity would never get in the way of a good old fashioned shoot 'em up. This is what we are trying to keep away from Korean War reenacting, we want those types to stay the hell away from our hobby and era and stay where they are. We are progressive reenactors, most of us at least, and that is scary to a lot of main scream reenactors...because it isnt what they are used to or enjoy, and thats fine drink your beer and play your ww2 version of paintball, I want Korean War reenactors to be living historians 1st, and reenactors second, this should be done for the experience, and to forge bonds with other like minded individuals.

In summation we will have a commonwealth only event, and it will be done just like our GI events, meaning you wont have what I was used too see when I did British...30 people show up 25 regiments are represented...mostly cause everyone wants to "My family was from..." or they really like the cap badge. Strict authenticity guidelines will be enforced, and it may seem like we are being pricks...but we are simply protected something that we are putting a lot of effort into. Our goal is, when people talk about Korea Reenacting, they talk about an experience filled with surprises, ups, downs, and an overall realistic experience (sans live ammo of course), our goal is to try and make a stand with our era and say "NO" to the farbtastical assholes who wish to stain our hobby and ruin our attempt at a historical experience.

(humbermk4, none of this was directed at you at all so dont think for one min that I think you are one of "them" I am just explaining out thought process, and why we seem so nutty. I hope that you understand and that you want to help us with the planning of a Commonwealth only event, maybe this summer, or fall/winter. I leave that up to you...cheers mate)

[Humber Mk4]

Hi Guys,
No problem. I see your points.
So is the concept of the list members to sort of "be nekkid" and put a kit together based on the scenario picked for the next event, or to let units form and they look at the schedule and see if they are eligible?

Personally, I have no problems with either approach - just need to know what to tell the rest of the lads.

As to a separate Commonwealth-based event - Open to that of course. Site and distance to bring the armour is always a major consideration.

BTW, Alan Cors has expressed a willingness to "loan us" his Churchill tank if we cover the costs. Same might be doable for his Centurion, but would need to ask. Usual caveats about maintenance status of the vehicles apply of course.

Have you considered using the WW1 site in Newville PA? Not sure of your reenacting background but the site can be "rented" for a weekend for a fee to the Great War Association. Again usual caveats about taking care of the trenches and leaving the site in good condition apply.

Having any of the heavier armour like the Daimler Armoured car or the HAC (much less the tanks) would rather lock us into RTR or a CAV unit - Brit or Canadian. If we have a site unsuitable for the bigger stuff, and all we try to bring is the Dingos and/or a bren carrier, we could badge up as Infantry. ( I have my red hackle!) or Glousters, or

So to sum up. no Brits for the Feb event, and the next opportunity is TBD?

What is the geographic spread of the list members? Is VA/MD/PA a good start for everyone for a new event?

Cheers,
Jim

[yalu]

They could always do PVA

[foxholetom]

Jim,

A number of us are in the south east, specifically North Carolina. Newville is a bit of a haul for us, but it does have existing trenches and bunkers, so its something to think about. It would be an ideal site for late war outpost events.

Feb is no Brits, and we've discussed but have not locked in a summer event with Army also as the impression, however if there are Brits who like the sound of our event, we are more than willing to plan an event for them. You pretty much nailed our concept on the whole. We put out the impression for the event, if people are on the same sheet of music, they can come.

Subsidizing the armor is always problematical, and comes down to what the tank can add to the event as a whole. I love tanks, especially Centurions, but it has to add to the event as a whole.

As far as geography, the three main planners for this are all in North Carolina, with the rest of our members between Charleston and Washington D.C.

[1 Mx MG Bn]

Interesting subject ..... John - you are making some really good points.

In the event of a warm weather CW event this means denim uniforms, therefore sans insignia, er-go - no 'special' units. Just participants in the perscribed scenario. So cool.

I am all for shouldering a No 4, and whatever fits on my back. If there is an interest. I do have a gas powered Vickers MG to bring along, if warranted. Research prior to the tentative scenario will reveal if support weapons like this were hauled up and down the hills of the central Korean peninsula. I have wanted a chance to carry that thing until my back hurt. I have a restored 1942 Canadian 15cwt truck if the scenario includes a real road network.

Happy New Year, Lads. Best wishes for 2008 !!!

Cheers, Johnnie, 1st Middlesex MG .

[humber mk4]

Hi lads,
Ok, South Carolina is the "center of mass" then?

A bit of a hike to either go down or come up, but not too bad. Sounds like planning an event with the bigger armoured cars would be a couple of years away. Bringing a tank form Cors sounds many years away, unless you were doing something with the History Channel and they paid for the rental.

Just so I have some feel for the numbers... How many North Korean or Chinese reenactors do you currently have?
How many Yanks would put a Brit kit together?

I appreciate you probably can't do a 100 per side, but which side of 50 total attendees are you?

What is the criteria for establishing a Commonwealth event? Once a year? More? less?

What numbers do you consider to be a "critical mass" for putting on a KW event?

If 15th Recce established a new personna as a Korean War unit, and thought to host an annual commonwealth event, would the list members see that as a plus to reenacting the Korean War, or would you see it as a distraction from the listmembers goals?

I am cautious that in our enthusiasm with finding a group reenacting the KW that we run the risk of suddenly complicating the existing development plan.

Sounds like you are all off to a great start, we would like to help it along, but we don't want to upset the applecart.

I guess it is a case of telling us the criteria for hosting an event and let us develop a project plan to submit to the list. (dates, location, scenario, safety, logistics, etc) if we get a thumbs up, then we act on it. If not, we stay clear and don't become a nuisance.
Fair enough?


Happy Hogmanay!

[John Abshire]

Most of us live in North Carolina, we do have access to land in SC, but currently we are trying to host events in NC and VA to try and keep the land closer to everyone. The only way id have Armored Cars and Tanks would be if we were doing an early war event and we got a few T-34s, some ATGs, plenty of Trucks, tracks, and infantry...and we could do an Armored Push...but thats probaly years in the making...but still an option and that door will remain open.

As it stands now the way we are doing events is with a very very small cadre of Chinese who are working directly for the event staff. They arent really a unit per-say but they do play the role of Chinese well. They are into the culture, the way the military works for the Chinese side, and so forth. The standards for Chinese/North Koreans is the same as the Americans/Commonwealth so its harder to find people as dedicated to playing "Bad guy". The goal of my unit the Korean War Living History Unit and the host unit for the Feb event, is for each member to have a GI Impression, Commonwealth Impression, and Chinese/North Korean Impression, we want to be able to support all aspects of the new found era in the hobby...honestly we are treating it like I guess Civil war reenactors do just in the fact that they have multiple impressions and will play for both teams...only we take it a step further and make our impressions based on each individual event. So as far as exact numbers, that will depend on the event, and the time we have to finish our Impressions...my current numbers for the KWLHU is around 10...not alot but a good start, at the event in Feb they will be both playing GI and Chinese...and since the event is highly scripted and not fought like most reenactor battles...it wont matter if we only have 3 Chinese...our events are based more on the experience, and less on who wins. At the end of the day, the war is still going on...no one wins and no one loses...

I have no idea who of the yanks are willing to play Commonwealth, but as it stands now for the 1st Commonwealth event I was looking to do much like we are doing now and split our forces and work with both the Chinese and Commonwealth forces, but if the numbers are there...we might just focus on playing the Chinese.

I honestly dont even know if we have 30-50 dedicated to the Feb event, but so far id say with intrest and talk we have atleast 50 who are intrested, and only a fraction of that can make it to this event. Keep in mind we just started to make this event public around the end of November and the post for the event didnt go up untill 11 days ago...so far we have a good following considering the short time frame, and the newness of this era for events both tactical and Living history.

As for the Commonwealth event, this is something I would personally like to talk to you about at length and explain what we are thinking and wanting to do and getting you on the same page so you can brief your blokes on their interest level.

My goal is after this event is to see were everyones intrest level is AFTER we have done our 1st event, posted pictures on Video (we plan on doing a small video and some pictures on SUNDAY so it will not interfere with the experience.) if we have enough "street credit" as event planners I would then like to discuss the idea of forming sort of an alliance of reenacting groups dedicated to "the cause", which is Korean War, both living history and tacticals. This group will have training events together, tactical events together, and help support living history events of other members, my goal and dream would be 1 homogeneous unit that is simply dedicated to doing events like we want to do events...less a war game and more an experience...but thats a goal years in the making.

I will PM you my home number and I would like to speak with you and lay out what we are looking for and see if our ideas match and see where you stand with some of our ideas...keep in mind the Korean War events so far are being hosted in a way that only progressives and authentics will enjoy them...and we aim to keep it that way, we want people who are Main Stream in Korean War to be authentics and progressives, and the others will be the weirdos!

Abshire

PS: Forget the PM 910-579-1944 no calls after 10pm

[stu]

I am definitely interested in doing commonwealth, in fact I have a 90% complete PPCLI (canadian) impression although the insignia can obviously be swapped for an event. I'm also sitting on a pile of patter 49 battledress trousers so if a commonwealth event becomes possible I'll give these things away (except cost of shipping) if it will help field some people. (I'm up in MD btw)

And as for having the vickers, yeah they did lug those up the hills:
bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/Korea_-_Vickers_MG_summer_outpost.jpg
They also used the US .30 MG too:
bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/Korea_-_A_Coy_2_RCR_M1919A4_MMG.jpg

[Mk2 Vickers gunner]

Aye, Stu, been researching the few books I have on the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders in KW, stuff online. They were there for the early period up to 1951 or so then removed to Hong Kong. I have read narrative stating they had to provide their own supprt forces, MG sections, transport & supply, provost, etc. Have seen multiple pics of MG positions mostly Vickers. No vehicles available -my guess is they lugged the 80 lb. gun and tripod where it was needed. Strange, but seen very little pure British BD uniform, most of the uniforms in pics look US issue. Searching for a narrative stating "supplied with US uniform, gear, etc.", seeing lots of full sets of P-37 webbing & MkII helmets, though.

Saw KW period Commonwealth Div insignia recently on ebay. Was a wedge shaped light blue shield with a KC on upper half and word "COMMONWEALTH" across bottom half. Kinda queer item to wear on a combat uniform so there you go. My educated guess is the average Tommie wouldn't ever see this insignia. Mostly no insignia was worn at all beyond rank insignia. Even more rare were khaki slip ons and cap badges, that may be about all distinctive insignia early war battalions wore. Once the central plains were recaptured the fresh battalions arrived in P-44 gear, MkIII helmets and so on. But I am still researching - sure to correct some of this as I learn more about the individual soldier and his battalion.

Impression to focus on ? I am looking forward to doing something other than Argylls, doesn't really matter. Northumberland, Middlesex and so on were there during the early period.

You in MD ? I live near Fort Meade, Mate. You got a P-49 in chest size 50 - 52 ?

Cheers, Johnnie, 1 Mx MG Bn.

[DocDon]

Hullo Johnnie et al,
Go here:
www.thekoreanwar.co.uk/
there are some pics of the Argys and Middlesex lads arriving in (probably) Pusan, Aug 1950. Looks to me like they are wearing Jungle Green uniforms, right down to the floppy hat. No good pics of web gear though.
Personally, I would go Middlesex.

Mugs up,
Don

[stu]

The BD I have right now is trousers but the jackets seems to be somewhat common on ebay.
bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/Korea_-_PPCLI_sniper_with_C_No_67_Mk_I_scope.jpg

That's a canadian and one of the few pictures I've seen of straight battledress. The use of BD seems to be quite.... varied.

The commonwealth patches were quite varied:
www.diggerhistory.info/pages-badges/cloth-patches2.htm
The light blue Commonwealth patches were the division patch, and any other UK/Anzac/Canuck not attatched to the division wore the "British Forces Commonwealth" patch shown there.

If you pay a lot of attention to the patches, you note the crown on the patch changes in 1953 with the latest coronation.

I've been mostly focusing on the canadians but the canadian and british photos I've seen show all sorts of equipment. Double buckle boots, M1 helmets, Garand bayonets, M1 carbines. I've read that the Commonwealth brigades were actually suffering from a lack of proper support personnel outside of the combat arms. That they had to rely on the American command or, later on, for locals to fill those rolls.

And yeah, I'm in MD. Either Annapolis or Bel Air depending on the circumstance.

[Stephen]

Hello all,

I'm very interested in doing a British unit for Korea. From my research, P'37 web and P'44 web was worn in theather... just depends on the unit and time frame being portrayed. Also, as to uniforms... totally dependant on unit and time frame as you will find photos of British troops wearing P'49 uniforms, the "late war" (meaning developed for use in WW2) Jungle uniforms to even KD. Once again... unit and trame period being portrayed will govern what we would wear. As an example, from my research of the 1st Battalion the Black Watch in Korea (June '51- July '53) They wore P'49 wool BD (winter time w/Parkas of unknown orign), P'44 webbing, MkIII/IV helmets, and their summer wear was a mix of green jungle uniforms made at the end of the 1939-1945 war and the newer P'49 tropical uniform. Of course I'm always keen to hear and read what others have found about this unit and others.

Frankly, as a re-enactor... I don't care what unit we portray. I just want to wear my P'49 BD and P'44 webbing at an event... if only just once. This would be a time that P'49 will be the correct stuff to wear! (I can't believe I just said that)
cheers,
Stephen Keller

[royal7monocle]

Hello all, Building a new Korean War "British" unit could be very easy as the combat photos that I've seen do NOT show any unit patches on the P'49. That means that head gear and cap badges will determine the unit. It could be pretty easy then. Also, early in 1950 you will see P'37 webbing (I think that was what 27 BDE was using) but photos of 28 and 29 BDE in late 1950-early '51 show P'44 web gear. I would guess that by April '51 P'44 webbing was the rule but maybe not the 100% correct answer.

I'm in MD so maybe that will bring the center mass of British re-enactors a bit north.
cheers,
Stephen Keller

[hartwooddays]

SO . . . . . .Is the VA unit still around??

[brigadepiron]

royal7monocle - I'm afraid they do!