format for Marine dog tags in Korean War.

[usmcssgt]

What was the correct format for dog tags used by Marines in the Korean war? I know they were using the notched tags by then, but was the format the same as used in WW2, or was it different?

[bellumbill]

Hello -

I am new to the board and this is my first post -

I too would like to know the exact format for USMC tags during the KW - I am not unconvinced that in 1950 marines weren't still using the WWII style oval dog tag. I know eventually they went to the Army style notched tag, but I would like to know exactly when.

Also, does anyone know what the serial number ranges were for the marines during the KW?? I am pretty sure by 1950 they were into the 7 digit range.

Pictured below is a photo of a set dated to 1950 from ebay - the seller claimed it was purchased from a local estate sale.



Thanks - Excited to be here, great forum!

Best to all -
Bill K.

[redjoshman]

This is what Grunt Gear says on the adoption of the Army tag:
The oval tag in use since 1917 was phased out begining in 1948 in favor of the notched tag adopted by the US Army and Air Force. This move simplified the supply system as now all branches of service would now use the same style of blanks for identification tags. The Navy Uniform Regulations of May 2, 1947(effective January 1st 1948) called for the adoption of the standard Army M-1940 notched blank with with rolled edge. This elliptical tag with a single hole measured 29mm x 51mm(1-1/8" x 2"). They were made of corrosion-resisting material such as monel or stainless steel. The information on the notched tag would be the same as the oval tag(name, serial number, blood type, religion, and USMC/USMCR) but was stamped in the army font with deep-punched lettering which protruded on the reverse. The notched tag was not in wide-spread use by the Marine Corps until 1950.

Officers tag #1:
ALLSTROM
DONALD ERIK
O51976 B
USMC P.

Enlisted tag #1:
FRANK

RAMSEY
370480
USMCR 0 P

Enlisted tag #1 WWII era issue:
RAMSEY
FRANK H
370480
TET 5/42
TYPE-0
USMCR

Enlisted tag #2:
LA TONDRE
Richard B
636823
USMC A
Catholic

Enlisted tag #2 Post WWII/Pre 1948(Enlisted 1946):
LA TONDRE
R.B.
636823 C
TYPE A
USMC

Notes:
1. Notched tags had the Army style font with serifs and were deep punched with the letters protruding on the reverse.
2. In 1938 the Army initiated a small scale trial of a new type of dog tag. This tag, as well as the stamping process, was the result of research done at the Adressograph Division of the Adressograph -Multigraph Corporation in Euclid, Ohio. The newly designed, notched tag was authorized on December 12, 1940. The indentation or notch on the M-1940 identification tag was used to seat the into the model 70 Adressograph(imprinter). This hand-held machine was used to imprint or transfer the raised letters and numbers on the tag to a casualty reporting medical form for tagging individual personnel. A pin in the imprinter allows the tag to be inserted only one way, face up with the notch in the lower right position.


What he has to say on Post World War II Oval Tags:
It is generally believed that T-dates were no longer required o Navy and Marine ID tags after World War II, although T-dates have been observed on oval tags as late as March 1951. Oval Tags can be found with WWII enlisted serial numbers, but without a T-date, indicating a second or third issue tag made after the war.
Officer example:
ALTON
LUCIAN
08582
USMC
0 P
(USNA: 1938-1941
USMC: 1942-1962
Retired as a Lt. Col.)

WO/CWO Example:
CYRUS
W
KEITH
O12322
A USMC P
(Enlisted: 1934-1942
Warrant: 1942-1946
Chief Warrant: 1946-1962)

Enlisted:
CARL
AARON
RONEY
USMCR
959442
-P- BT-O
(Still using "BT" for blood type.)

Post-WWII T-Dates on Marine Tags:
Oval tags exist with post-1945 T-dates as late as T-3-51. It is not known if this was optional at the local command level or if, indeed, T-dates were re-instituted on Marine tags.

Officer Example:
WILLIAM
KELSEY
LANMAN JR
04681 PROT
LTCOL USMC
T3-46 O

Enlisted Example #1:
MC NEIL.
THOMAS A.
573059 USMC
B.T. 0. P.
T. 10/47

Enlisted Example #2:
VERNON
WILLIAM T JR
1188273 P
B T 3-51
USMCR

Post WWII Enlisted Serial Numbers:
When enlisted serial numbers within each block reached the end of the series (e.g.,599999 or 999999) the logical progression was to roll them over to the 1,000,000 series. It appears this took place around August/September 1945.

Example #1:
KRUPA,
PAUL E.
10146449 C
TET-9/45
TPYE-A
USMC
(1,000,000 series in use by September of 1945.)

Example #2
CHARLES N.
GARABEDIAN
1055320
MCR
P
(Issued August 1950 aboard "USS President Jackson" (T-AP 18).)

Example #3:
JOHNSON
COURTLAND
R.
1104204
BT- USMCR

From Pages: 112-116

Citation:
Tulkoff, Alec S. Grunt Gear USMC Combat Infantry Equipment of World War II. Grand Rapids: R. James Bender, 2003. Print.


-Josh

[bellumbill]

redjoshman -

Thanks! Yeah, I have that book and have consulted it several times. Here's the issue, though - Though Mr. Tulkoff states that the marines went to the Army style notched tag in 1948 I have yet to see a USMC tag with KW era dates, especially early dates from '50, '51. I have seen a few from later, '53 or so.

I terms of numbering, from what I can tell the marines were into the 7 digit serial numbers by 1950, but I think that is for new marines entering service, probably mostly17 and 18 year olds. Reservists or WWII vets who stayed in still had 6 digit serial numbers I believe.

The USMC numbering system still seems a bit of a mystery to me. For example, as you show from Mr. Tulkoff's book, there is an example of a marine with a T-date of 1945 with a 7 digit serial number. But, for example, Pvt. Peter J. Stankiewicz, born in 1929, and so the earliest he could have enlisted was 1946, was given a 6 digit serial number 607299. [Pvt. Stankiewicz won a Silver Star in China in 1947].

My guess is that there was a difference between a draftee and an enlistee. Draftees sent to the marines in WWII were assigned a 900,000 series serial number. Ostensibly, when they got to 999,999 they rolled over to 1,000,000 series. BUT, if you enlisted in the marines you still got one of the 6 digit serial numbers?

Anyway, that's my best guess.....

If you want to see a range of serial numbers from the period here is a roster for D Co 2/7, 1950-1955.

www.marzone.com/dog2~7/DCoRoster.pdf

I'll keep researching away.

Thanks and best regards,
Bill K.

[redjoshman]

The reason you fail to see dates on the notched dog tags is that the Marine Corps Seemingly dropped all dates when they switched to the new tags. Also they seem to have dropped it for a period late during World War II and during the post war period(though there is a chance they may have been re-instituted). This is just a guess at a time-line for correct tags for Korea and how it pertains to a reenactor:

If you are portraying a World War II Enlistment:
You can use World War II tags and variations, Post war Oval Tag variant, and Army Tag(the later to would be as replacements for l

Post War Enlistment:
Post war Oval Tag information(with or with T Dates) or Army Style Tags(as replacements)

1950 or later Enlistments:
Army Style Tags

The serial number question is weird as Tolkoff does provide an examples of a member of the USMC(not USMCR) with a 7 digit serial number by September of 1945 but also gives an example of a guy in the USMC with a 6 digit number who enlisted in 1946.

It would also be interesting to see which MCRD ran out of oval tags first and started using Army Tag and if the serial numbers handed out were related to the respective MCRD.


-Josh

[pop401k]

Perhaps "blocks" of numbers were issued for different regions of the country... so that the sparsely populated areas of ...say Wyoming, Montana etc. would still be issuing 6-digit numbers when the more populated regions were well into the 7-digits.

Just a thought.

[redjoshman]

That would also make sense, I was thinking of the serial number blocks being assigned to the different MCRDs but them being assigned to different regions also make sense. Then again this all speculation...

-Josh

[pop401k]

I got my number in Chicago, about 3 months before going to MCRD San Diego.

Which is to say; my number was given at the induction/AFEE center and my tags were made after I arrived at MCRD.

[bellumbill]

Feb 1, 2010 21:03:25 GMT -5 redjoshman said:

The reason you fail to see dates on the notched dog tags is that the Marine Corps Seemingly dropped all dates when they switched to the new tags. Also they seem to have dropped it for a period late during World War II and during the post war period(though there is a chance they may have been re-instituted). This is just a guess at a time-line for correct tags for Korea and how it pertains to a reenactor:

If you are portraying a World War II Enlistment:
You can use World War II tags and variations, Post war Oval Tag variant, and Army Tag(the later to would be as replacements for l

Post War Enlistment:
Post war Oval Tag information(with or with T Dates) or Army Style Tags(as replacements)

1950 or later Enlistments:
Army Style Tags

The serial number question is weird as Tolkoff does provide an examples of a member of the USMC(not USMCR) with a 7 digit serial number by September of 1945 but also gives an example of a guy in the USMC with a 6 digit number who enlisted in 1946.

It would also be interesting to see which MCRD ran out of oval tags first and started using Army Tag and if the serial numbers handed out were related to the respective MCRD.


-Josh

Josh -

Great point about the Army style tags. As far as the WWII style tags, as you can see from the photo above I posted it has a Oct. 1950 T. date, and below is a photo of another tag with a Sept. 1950 T-date so I believe that the marines were still likely using the WWII style tags well into the year 1950 - I believe personally that the switch began in 1951/52, but I don't know as of yet how to verify that because, as you say, T dates were eliminated at some point.

In my case, since I am too old, 42, to pass for an 18 year old enlistee I will go with a WWII style tag and a 6 digit serial number.



Good discussion, thanks for all the info.

Best to all!
Bill K.

[redjoshman]

Feb 2, 2010 12:59:58 GMT -5 pop401k said:

I got my number in Chicago, about 3 months before going to MCRD San Diego.

Which is to say; my number was given at the induction/AFEE center and my tags were made after I arrived at MCRD.

Thanks wasn't sure when serial numbers were assigned.

Feb 2, 2010 14:12:07 GMT -5 bellumbill said:

Feb 1, 2010 21:03:25 GMT -5 redjoshman said:

The reason you fail to see dates on the notched dog tags is that the Marine Corps Seemingly dropped all dates when they switched to the new tags. Also they seem to have dropped it for a period late during World War II and during the post war period(though there is a chance they may have been re-instituted). This is just a guess at a time-line for correct tags for Korea and how it pertains to a reenactor:

If you are portraying a World War II Enlistment:
You can use World War II tags and variations, Post war Oval Tag variant, and Army Tag(the later to would be as replacements for l

Post War Enlistment:
Post war Oval Tag information(with or with T Dates) or Army Style Tags(as replacements)

1950 or later Enlistments:
Army Style Tags

The serial number question is weird as Tolkoff does provide an examples of a member of the USMC(not USMCR) with a 7 digit serial number by September of 1945 but also gives an example of a guy in the USMC with a 6 digit number who enlisted in 1946.

It would also be interesting to see which MCRD ran out of oval tags first and started using Army Tag and if the serial numbers handed out were related to the respective MCRD.


-Josh

Josh -

Great point about the Army style tags. As far as the WWII style tags, as you can see from the photo above I posted it has a Oct. 1950 T. date, and below is a photo of another tag with a Sept. 1950 T-date so I believe that the marines were still likely using the WWII style tags well into the year 1950 - I believe personally that the switch began in 1951/52, but I don't know as of yet how to verify that because, as you say, T dates were eliminated at some point.

In my case, since I am too old, 42, to pass for an 18 year old enlistee I will go with a WWII style tag and a 6 digit serial number.

i22.photobucket.com/albums/b319/Bellumbill/KoreanWarUSMCdogtagII.jpg

Good discussion, thanks for all the info.

Best to all!
Bill K.

I'm probably going to use the Dog Tags that I use for World War II reenacting until I have a chance to make up a set of the post World War II style Oval Tags, I'm probably going to make a version of this one:
CHARLES N.
GARABEDIAN
1055320
MCR
P

I Just think that is so cool.

-Josh

[bellumbill]

Josh -

I agree, that is a cool style - The "MCR" is interesting - I have seen it on some WWII tags too. Guess the guy making the tags was in a hurry!

Best,
Bill K.

[pop401k]

Were they still making the distinction between "regular" USMC and "reserve" USMCR by 1950?

[redjoshman]

I would say yes, as one of the examples posted that has a post 1945 T-Date is T-Dated 3-51 and it has the USMCR distinction.

-Josh

[carolhipperson]

I am currently interviewing a Korean War Marine, one of the Chosin Few. The dog tag in his collection of wartime souvenirs has 6 lines as follows:

Line 1: first name
Line 2: middle name
Line 3: last name
Line 4. Serial number (7 digits)
Line 5. USMCR
Line 6: GR. ORTH A

His religious preference was Greek Orthodox. He says this dog tag was issued to him shortly after he returned to the States from Korea in June 1951.

Carol Edgemon Hipperson
Radioman: An Eyewitness Account of Pearl Harbor and World War II in the Pacific
(Thomas Dunne Books/St. Martins Press, 2008)
The Belly Gunner
(Twenty-First Century Books/Millbrook Press, 2001)
www.carolhipperson.com

[gunnyred]

here's a question for ya...what about 'salts' that were WW2 vets that still had the oval...with the new navy regs, were they told to get the 'new' army type?