Post by John Abshire on Jan 22, 2007 18:09:45 GMT -5
Be sure to check this often as it will be updated alot.
The Research is done by Woodard, but if any of you wish to add to the research feel free to help...thats what the forum is for!
Equipment list
Much of Chinese gear does not appear to have been terribly standardized during the early part of the war. I realize that this is hard for people of a Western military background to comprehend, but pictures often show soldiers from the same time and unit wearing different items. Soldiers with rags tied around their feet or heads were not uncommon. The Chinese Guerilla army of the Civil War was in the process of transforming it’s self into a modern military from its homegrown roots. If you find something for sale that looks kind of like what you’re looking for, check with us and we’ll probably encourage you to all look slightly different.
The Civil war and Anti-Japan war were fought with amazingly primative weapons, such as broadswords, matchlocks, homemade wooden cannon fired with homemade gunpowder, alongside bolt action rifles, light machine guns, and machine pistols. Everything soldiers worn or carried during this period was “cottage industry” made. Keep in mind that this was only five years before Korea, and they had another war in between to keep them busy.
Uniform:
Insignia: Soldiers in Korea were supposed to wear a chest patch with Chinese writing on it, we’re working on making some of these up. Pictures show these often not being worn, though. This would be stitched above the left breast pocket, or thereabouts if you have no pocket. Originals would have the wearer’s info on the back, but this is beyond my technical ability. No other insignia was worn. Everyone is either a fighter, or a leader. Unless someone has talked to you about it, you’re a fighter. These were much more popular during the Civil war, but I have seen them for sale with “Chinese People’s Volunteers” on them. Leaders sometimes wore a red armband, usually without any writing on it.
Cap: Mao cap, preferably in Khaki color. The green ones (that are everywhere in China and on the internet) aren’t really correct for our time period. (www.asianideas.com) has these in a variety of colors. The best thing is to get a white one and use RIT dye to turn it khaki. It was common to see Chinese troops wearing winter caps in the summer, but the winter ones are harder to find. There were at least three styles of winter cap in service during the war. The first is a padded mao cap with earflaps that tie below the chin. (www.sinologie.com) sells a cap that may be passable as this type with some modification. These were seen in nearly all photos of the Chosin campaign. Later in the war a cap similar to the Soviet Ushanka was worn. We’re still looking for sources on these. This was later further modified with a small cotton bill in front of the main flap, sometime in 1952.
Footwear: Shoes should be canvas, either North Vietnamese (PLA wears the same shoe, even the tread pattern is the same) or “cotton sole Shaolin shoes” from (www.sinologie.com) are good. Any kind of canvas and rubber shoe in the appropriate colors should work. Get good wool socks, otherwise you might loose a toe or two in cold weather. Puttees were uncommon, but occasionally worn, and should be khaki cotton. They were standard during the civil war, but dropped in 1950. If you can’t find either of these, a Black cotton slipper type shoe (sold as Tai Chi slippers) will work for now. Photos show troops wearing normal shoes even in bitter cold conditions, so wrapping some rags around your feet may be a good idea during the cold.
Uniform: The tunic seems to be an early version of the “Mao” suit we all know and love from the Cultural Revolution (Known in Chinese as Zhongshan suit). When looking, it should have four pockets and have a falling collar (places seem to call a standing collar a “Mao collar” because it looks “Chinese”). Be cautious what you get, a lot of complete crap is sold under the name “Mao jacket” or “Mao style”, or even “Zhongshan”. As of now, the only place selling reasonably proper ones in Khaki and light grey cotton is (www.sinologie.com), for about 30 euros (about $40 US). Pants are khaki, I’m sure you have some around the house. I believe we are accepting “any old khaki shirt” for a limited time, that’s around the house somewhere too. For very late periods, the green Chinese “Old style uniforms” are acceptable as of right now, but we encourage an earlier impression.
Winter: Winter clothing was a weakness of the CPV, especially gloves and footwear. Photos show different winter uniforms in each winter of the war, possibly indicating that the powers that be realized how many troops were dying of cold injuries. Photos of Chosin show padded Mao cap with earflaps, and a jacket and pants with padding underneath. Troops appear to have gloves, but are wearing normal summerweight shoes. Meanwhile, other units were wearing Chinese copies of the Soviet padded WW2 uniforms, with a Ushanka style hat. Winter uniforms varied by unit, captured troops from the first offensive look totally different from those captured at Chosin. Winter gear appears to have been standardized by unit, but we allow considerable variation due to the difficulty of acquiring winter items. Later in the war a padded jacket was issued, presumably along with padded khaki pants.
Colors: Pre war/ Civil war items were mostly grey-blue, khaki was adopted late in the Civil war, and after the Anti-Japan war had ended. “Yenan green” was adopted very late in the Korean War, and the Green Mao uniforms that are available on many websites were worn until quite recently (sometime after 1989) are tentatively acceptable for late war. Khaki is best for our purposes. Please do not get mix and matched uniforms, we prefer to see all khaki, or at least all green. Many places sell “Light grey” that may be acceptable (for one or two members of the squad, not general issue); we’ll be looking into this.
!!We are still in the process of researching uniforms. !!
Equipment: As members of a Revolutionary People’s Army, you may be called upon to go without some items of equipment. Know that the situation demands your sacrifice, The leadership is aware of your problems, and chances are that your leaders and comrades will gladly loan you whatever they have.
Ammunition carriage: Normally some sort of bandoleer or belt, usually made of fabric. These typically had a pocket for each clip, secured with pieces of string sewn to each side. A cotton bandoleer of the type Western ammunition was issued in may work with modification. Some troops got leather equipment, but there doesn’t seem to have been any standardization, and this looks to have been made by village leather workers. This was much more common with officers than fighters, and isn’t seen as much after 1949. SMG Pouches were the main item. The normal ammo load was 80 rounds, but you want more than that if you wanna fight all weekend. A satchel of grenades is acceptable as an alternative to a rifle. Until otherwise informed, those SKS bandoleers that everyone and his brother owns are not to be worn. If you already have Soviet ammo pouches then those are acceptable, if you’re buying some then the khaki cloth ones are best. Later pictures show men almost all wearing a leather belt, four-pocket grenade carrier, and a cloth bandoleer to carry ammunition in. The cotton Turkish 8mm bandoliers that are commonly available work great. They may need to have the strap extended for larger comrades, but us skinny folk can wear them as a belt or across the chest. When worn across the chest, as was most common, they should be adjusted so the pouches come all the way up to the shoulder, not worn western style with the pouches on the bottom half of the bandolier. I really need to just get a sewing machine and start making these…
Subsistence: Troops carried a tube for rations, similar to North Vietnamese troops. Every man carried a washing kit, some spare feet rags, bowl, chopsticks, and a spoon. No specific sleeping gear was carried, and no steel helmet was worn in Korea. Entrenching tools would be issued when available (www.northridgeinc.com). A tube similar to the North Vietnamese “rice roll”(Chinese troops do not normally seem to have carried rice) held rations, usually a few days worth. Canvas packs were worn occasionally, but are unnecessary for our purposes. Like most gear, they appear to be copies of Japanese WW2 packs, as sold by (www.stewartsmilitaryantiques.com ) . A small satchel bag is good to have, either current PLA (www.omahas.com) or Japanese breadbag (www.atthefront.com, www.stewartsmilitaryantiques.com ). Some other satchels may work, let us know what you’re thinking before you order, though. No Mao Bags!! Even if they were period (which they aren’t), they wouldn’t be proper. As for canteens, recent Chinese (www.majorsurplusnsurvival.com), PAVN copy (www.sampan.com ), or Japanese (www.stewartsmilitaryantiques.com ) canteen works best. If you have nothing else a Soviet one, or a British 37 Pattern canteen with a shoulder strap will work, as will a glass bottle with a cork on a string. Although many Chinese troops did not have them, you need a canteen of some sort. Other than that you need a porcelain bowl and spoon (dollar store or around the house), and a pair of wooden chopsticks. You should probably get decent lacquer painted ones, the balsawood ones that come with Chinese take out are fine, but I don’t see how you could disinfect them after use.
If you have anything that rattles, clinks, clunks, or otherwise makes noise, keep in some kind of satchel you can take off and leave behind.
3. Weapons:
Units at the end of the Civil war carried a variety of weapons. Japanese (turned over by the Soviets after the Manchurian campaign), Soviet (Purchased from USSR), US (Lend lease and supplied to Nationalist forces in the Civil war, M1917’s, M-1 carbines, and MG’s), Thompson (M1928’s were ordered by some warlords before the war and subsequently manufactured at Taiyuan Arsenal, M-1’s were lend lease), Czech (purchased prior to WW2), German (Purchased and copied prior to WW2, the main weapon of the Anti Japan war was the 1888 commission rifle, and Mauser 98K and C96 copies were made in China). British Stens were produced in China, but Enfields were not usually seen. WW2 stuff only, no AK’s, although SKS’s (Soviet) are OK in limited amounts, if you can find blanks and adaptors for them. During the Civil War, pikes, muskets and broadswords were common, but not seen in Korea. By mid 1951 Soviet weapons, especially large quantities of PPSh’s were the norm. If you can’t manage to get a weapon, some men went into action with just grenades and were expected to pick up a rifle off of a casualty. At close range in the middle of the night a satchel full of grenades is a fine substitute to a bolt-action rifle, depending on how well you throw. Once we get a chance to test (meaning: throw at each other) some grenade patterns we’ll publish this info, and people can make their own. As far as rifles, if you need a loaner we have some extras, but you’ll need to let us know that you need one so we can tell you what kind of blanks to get.
Now that we’ve established the details…
Gear list minimum
Revolutionary Spirit
Mao Cap
Mao jacket or substitute khaki shirt
Pants (Bet you thought I was gonna say Mao pants, huh?)
Belt (leather, single prong buckle Soviet, British Pattern ’03, or whatever leather, brown, single prong military style belt you have)
Shoes
Ammo pouches or bandoleer
Canteen of some sort
One of the following:
Mosin Nagant 91/30
Mosin Nagant 44 carbine*
PPSh-41 or PPS-43
Any Japanese bolt-action rifle
US M-1917
Thompson
Sten
German K98 or 88 Commission rifle (or Chinese copies)
any LMG from before or during WW2 (Czech ZB, MG34, Bren, Japanese, or Soviet preferred)
satchel o’ grenades
Pistols for approved leaders only, please!
*These are encouraged, not only are they cheapest, and handy, they also seem to have been the most widely issued of the above weapons (except for the PPSh).
Sources:
www.asianideas.com Mao caps in different colors, I’m leaning towards getting a white one and dyeing it khaki myself with writ dye. Some of the “light grey” items would probably be OK.
www.sinologie.com French site, has khaki cotton Mao jackets. Do not order any of their hats, they are ridiculous and farby without major modifications. I’m looking for someone on this side of the pond for proper jackets, but it doesn’t look good.
www.tridentmilitary.com Soviet WW2 padded uniforms and ammo pouches.
www.ostfront.com Soviet Bandoleers, some other items that work.
www.sportsmansguide.com 7.62 x 54 Blanks
www.sampan.com Vietnamese items, those listed above will work for CPV. If it isn’t listed above check with your leader.
www.rddusa.com French canvas patugas for those of you who can’t fit into PAVN Boots. French copies of US Khaki uniforms as well. More of a wholesale site, $10 fee for ordering less than $100. You may want to do a group order for this site.
www.walmart.com Khaki clothes, Khaki material for home projects. Probably some acceptable food items in the grocery section. And yes, FYI, the shining beacon of capitalism has stores in China as well.
www.omahas.com Chinese canvas shoulder bag, modern PLA style (the one in their pic is 1968 dated, mine is 2004 dated, same thing).
www.northridgeinc.com Vietnam era Chinese E-tools and grenade carriers.
www.stewartsmilitaryantiques.com Some Japanese items, fine to mix into your impression as long as everyone doesn’t use them, or you aren’t fully kitted out with Japanese stuff. The tropical rucksack, satchel bag, and canteen holder are what you want, while we accept the later green Chinese copies for now. They also have Chinese military Bugles and original CPV Drinking mugs, painted and given to volunteers. Wow.
www.chinabadge.com Site out of Beijing, good stuff at great prices. Shipping is what kills you. Go by the pictures, his english isn’t 100%. Also don’t order any dummy ordnance, unless you wanna go to jail. Military surplus is everywhere in China, but nobody really sells it (mostly homeless people and construction workers wear it). When you find it it’s pretty cheap. I haven’t ordered anything, and you have to pay through an intermediary bank (yea, I know).
www.majorsurplusnsurvival.com Chinese Canteens, same that Sampan sells, two for $13. You’ll have a hard time beating that price even in China. If you have a DP they have mag bags as well.
The Research is done by Woodard, but if any of you wish to add to the research feel free to help...thats what the forum is for!
Equipment list
Much of Chinese gear does not appear to have been terribly standardized during the early part of the war. I realize that this is hard for people of a Western military background to comprehend, but pictures often show soldiers from the same time and unit wearing different items. Soldiers with rags tied around their feet or heads were not uncommon. The Chinese Guerilla army of the Civil War was in the process of transforming it’s self into a modern military from its homegrown roots. If you find something for sale that looks kind of like what you’re looking for, check with us and we’ll probably encourage you to all look slightly different.
The Civil war and Anti-Japan war were fought with amazingly primative weapons, such as broadswords, matchlocks, homemade wooden cannon fired with homemade gunpowder, alongside bolt action rifles, light machine guns, and machine pistols. Everything soldiers worn or carried during this period was “cottage industry” made. Keep in mind that this was only five years before Korea, and they had another war in between to keep them busy.
Uniform:
Insignia: Soldiers in Korea were supposed to wear a chest patch with Chinese writing on it, we’re working on making some of these up. Pictures show these often not being worn, though. This would be stitched above the left breast pocket, or thereabouts if you have no pocket. Originals would have the wearer’s info on the back, but this is beyond my technical ability. No other insignia was worn. Everyone is either a fighter, or a leader. Unless someone has talked to you about it, you’re a fighter. These were much more popular during the Civil war, but I have seen them for sale with “Chinese People’s Volunteers” on them. Leaders sometimes wore a red armband, usually without any writing on it.
Cap: Mao cap, preferably in Khaki color. The green ones (that are everywhere in China and on the internet) aren’t really correct for our time period. (www.asianideas.com) has these in a variety of colors. The best thing is to get a white one and use RIT dye to turn it khaki. It was common to see Chinese troops wearing winter caps in the summer, but the winter ones are harder to find. There were at least three styles of winter cap in service during the war. The first is a padded mao cap with earflaps that tie below the chin. (www.sinologie.com) sells a cap that may be passable as this type with some modification. These were seen in nearly all photos of the Chosin campaign. Later in the war a cap similar to the Soviet Ushanka was worn. We’re still looking for sources on these. This was later further modified with a small cotton bill in front of the main flap, sometime in 1952.
Footwear: Shoes should be canvas, either North Vietnamese (PLA wears the same shoe, even the tread pattern is the same) or “cotton sole Shaolin shoes” from (www.sinologie.com) are good. Any kind of canvas and rubber shoe in the appropriate colors should work. Get good wool socks, otherwise you might loose a toe or two in cold weather. Puttees were uncommon, but occasionally worn, and should be khaki cotton. They were standard during the civil war, but dropped in 1950. If you can’t find either of these, a Black cotton slipper type shoe (sold as Tai Chi slippers) will work for now. Photos show troops wearing normal shoes even in bitter cold conditions, so wrapping some rags around your feet may be a good idea during the cold.
Uniform: The tunic seems to be an early version of the “Mao” suit we all know and love from the Cultural Revolution (Known in Chinese as Zhongshan suit). When looking, it should have four pockets and have a falling collar (places seem to call a standing collar a “Mao collar” because it looks “Chinese”). Be cautious what you get, a lot of complete crap is sold under the name “Mao jacket” or “Mao style”, or even “Zhongshan”. As of now, the only place selling reasonably proper ones in Khaki and light grey cotton is (www.sinologie.com), for about 30 euros (about $40 US). Pants are khaki, I’m sure you have some around the house. I believe we are accepting “any old khaki shirt” for a limited time, that’s around the house somewhere too. For very late periods, the green Chinese “Old style uniforms” are acceptable as of right now, but we encourage an earlier impression.
Winter: Winter clothing was a weakness of the CPV, especially gloves and footwear. Photos show different winter uniforms in each winter of the war, possibly indicating that the powers that be realized how many troops were dying of cold injuries. Photos of Chosin show padded Mao cap with earflaps, and a jacket and pants with padding underneath. Troops appear to have gloves, but are wearing normal summerweight shoes. Meanwhile, other units were wearing Chinese copies of the Soviet padded WW2 uniforms, with a Ushanka style hat. Winter uniforms varied by unit, captured troops from the first offensive look totally different from those captured at Chosin. Winter gear appears to have been standardized by unit, but we allow considerable variation due to the difficulty of acquiring winter items. Later in the war a padded jacket was issued, presumably along with padded khaki pants.
Colors: Pre war/ Civil war items were mostly grey-blue, khaki was adopted late in the Civil war, and after the Anti-Japan war had ended. “Yenan green” was adopted very late in the Korean War, and the Green Mao uniforms that are available on many websites were worn until quite recently (sometime after 1989) are tentatively acceptable for late war. Khaki is best for our purposes. Please do not get mix and matched uniforms, we prefer to see all khaki, or at least all green. Many places sell “Light grey” that may be acceptable (for one or two members of the squad, not general issue); we’ll be looking into this.
!!We are still in the process of researching uniforms. !!
Equipment: As members of a Revolutionary People’s Army, you may be called upon to go without some items of equipment. Know that the situation demands your sacrifice, The leadership is aware of your problems, and chances are that your leaders and comrades will gladly loan you whatever they have.
Ammunition carriage: Normally some sort of bandoleer or belt, usually made of fabric. These typically had a pocket for each clip, secured with pieces of string sewn to each side. A cotton bandoleer of the type Western ammunition was issued in may work with modification. Some troops got leather equipment, but there doesn’t seem to have been any standardization, and this looks to have been made by village leather workers. This was much more common with officers than fighters, and isn’t seen as much after 1949. SMG Pouches were the main item. The normal ammo load was 80 rounds, but you want more than that if you wanna fight all weekend. A satchel of grenades is acceptable as an alternative to a rifle. Until otherwise informed, those SKS bandoleers that everyone and his brother owns are not to be worn. If you already have Soviet ammo pouches then those are acceptable, if you’re buying some then the khaki cloth ones are best. Later pictures show men almost all wearing a leather belt, four-pocket grenade carrier, and a cloth bandoleer to carry ammunition in. The cotton Turkish 8mm bandoliers that are commonly available work great. They may need to have the strap extended for larger comrades, but us skinny folk can wear them as a belt or across the chest. When worn across the chest, as was most common, they should be adjusted so the pouches come all the way up to the shoulder, not worn western style with the pouches on the bottom half of the bandolier. I really need to just get a sewing machine and start making these…
Subsistence: Troops carried a tube for rations, similar to North Vietnamese troops. Every man carried a washing kit, some spare feet rags, bowl, chopsticks, and a spoon. No specific sleeping gear was carried, and no steel helmet was worn in Korea. Entrenching tools would be issued when available (www.northridgeinc.com). A tube similar to the North Vietnamese “rice roll”(Chinese troops do not normally seem to have carried rice) held rations, usually a few days worth. Canvas packs were worn occasionally, but are unnecessary for our purposes. Like most gear, they appear to be copies of Japanese WW2 packs, as sold by (www.stewartsmilitaryantiques.com ) . A small satchel bag is good to have, either current PLA (www.omahas.com) or Japanese breadbag (www.atthefront.com, www.stewartsmilitaryantiques.com ). Some other satchels may work, let us know what you’re thinking before you order, though. No Mao Bags!! Even if they were period (which they aren’t), they wouldn’t be proper. As for canteens, recent Chinese (www.majorsurplusnsurvival.com), PAVN copy (www.sampan.com ), or Japanese (www.stewartsmilitaryantiques.com ) canteen works best. If you have nothing else a Soviet one, or a British 37 Pattern canteen with a shoulder strap will work, as will a glass bottle with a cork on a string. Although many Chinese troops did not have them, you need a canteen of some sort. Other than that you need a porcelain bowl and spoon (dollar store or around the house), and a pair of wooden chopsticks. You should probably get decent lacquer painted ones, the balsawood ones that come with Chinese take out are fine, but I don’t see how you could disinfect them after use.
If you have anything that rattles, clinks, clunks, or otherwise makes noise, keep in some kind of satchel you can take off and leave behind.
3. Weapons:
Units at the end of the Civil war carried a variety of weapons. Japanese (turned over by the Soviets after the Manchurian campaign), Soviet (Purchased from USSR), US (Lend lease and supplied to Nationalist forces in the Civil war, M1917’s, M-1 carbines, and MG’s), Thompson (M1928’s were ordered by some warlords before the war and subsequently manufactured at Taiyuan Arsenal, M-1’s were lend lease), Czech (purchased prior to WW2), German (Purchased and copied prior to WW2, the main weapon of the Anti Japan war was the 1888 commission rifle, and Mauser 98K and C96 copies were made in China). British Stens were produced in China, but Enfields were not usually seen. WW2 stuff only, no AK’s, although SKS’s (Soviet) are OK in limited amounts, if you can find blanks and adaptors for them. During the Civil War, pikes, muskets and broadswords were common, but not seen in Korea. By mid 1951 Soviet weapons, especially large quantities of PPSh’s were the norm. If you can’t manage to get a weapon, some men went into action with just grenades and were expected to pick up a rifle off of a casualty. At close range in the middle of the night a satchel full of grenades is a fine substitute to a bolt-action rifle, depending on how well you throw. Once we get a chance to test (meaning: throw at each other) some grenade patterns we’ll publish this info, and people can make their own. As far as rifles, if you need a loaner we have some extras, but you’ll need to let us know that you need one so we can tell you what kind of blanks to get.
Now that we’ve established the details…
Gear list minimum
Revolutionary Spirit
Mao Cap
Mao jacket or substitute khaki shirt
Pants (Bet you thought I was gonna say Mao pants, huh?)
Belt (leather, single prong buckle Soviet, British Pattern ’03, or whatever leather, brown, single prong military style belt you have)
Shoes
Ammo pouches or bandoleer
Canteen of some sort
One of the following:
Mosin Nagant 91/30
Mosin Nagant 44 carbine*
PPSh-41 or PPS-43
Any Japanese bolt-action rifle
US M-1917
Thompson
Sten
German K98 or 88 Commission rifle (or Chinese copies)
any LMG from before or during WW2 (Czech ZB, MG34, Bren, Japanese, or Soviet preferred)
satchel o’ grenades
Pistols for approved leaders only, please!
*These are encouraged, not only are they cheapest, and handy, they also seem to have been the most widely issued of the above weapons (except for the PPSh).
Sources:
www.asianideas.com Mao caps in different colors, I’m leaning towards getting a white one and dyeing it khaki myself with writ dye. Some of the “light grey” items would probably be OK.
www.sinologie.com French site, has khaki cotton Mao jackets. Do not order any of their hats, they are ridiculous and farby without major modifications. I’m looking for someone on this side of the pond for proper jackets, but it doesn’t look good.
www.tridentmilitary.com Soviet WW2 padded uniforms and ammo pouches.
www.ostfront.com Soviet Bandoleers, some other items that work.
www.sportsmansguide.com 7.62 x 54 Blanks
www.sampan.com Vietnamese items, those listed above will work for CPV. If it isn’t listed above check with your leader.
www.rddusa.com French canvas patugas for those of you who can’t fit into PAVN Boots. French copies of US Khaki uniforms as well. More of a wholesale site, $10 fee for ordering less than $100. You may want to do a group order for this site.
www.walmart.com Khaki clothes, Khaki material for home projects. Probably some acceptable food items in the grocery section. And yes, FYI, the shining beacon of capitalism has stores in China as well.
www.omahas.com Chinese canvas shoulder bag, modern PLA style (the one in their pic is 1968 dated, mine is 2004 dated, same thing).
www.northridgeinc.com Vietnam era Chinese E-tools and grenade carriers.
www.stewartsmilitaryantiques.com Some Japanese items, fine to mix into your impression as long as everyone doesn’t use them, or you aren’t fully kitted out with Japanese stuff. The tropical rucksack, satchel bag, and canteen holder are what you want, while we accept the later green Chinese copies for now. They also have Chinese military Bugles and original CPV Drinking mugs, painted and given to volunteers. Wow.
www.chinabadge.com Site out of Beijing, good stuff at great prices. Shipping is what kills you. Go by the pictures, his english isn’t 100%. Also don’t order any dummy ordnance, unless you wanna go to jail. Military surplus is everywhere in China, but nobody really sells it (mostly homeless people and construction workers wear it). When you find it it’s pretty cheap. I haven’t ordered anything, and you have to pay through an intermediary bank (yea, I know).
www.majorsurplusnsurvival.com Chinese Canteens, same that Sampan sells, two for $13. You’ll have a hard time beating that price even in China. If you have a DP they have mag bags as well.
