Woodard
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Posts: 379
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Post by Woodard on Dec 12, 2007 11:59:14 GMT -5
Well, there you have it from someone who has been out in the cold in Korea. Sounds like it just plain sucked.
I'm wondering if I can try and find an account of an action that Marshall wrote about, and then find another account of it. A lot of his D-Day stuff that has been analyzed by other historians has been torn apart pretty bad, I thought the thing about the coxswain was especially alarming, since he basically made something up completely off the top of his head just to sound cool. I'm wondering if copies of any of the actual AAR's can be found?
And the carbine thing, I wonder if anyone else has used them in cold weather conditions on full auto? I know they are still used in some hot-dry and hot-wet environments.
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Post by foxholetom on Dec 12, 2007 13:37:27 GMT -5
Yalu,
Your experience backs up something I've been thinking about. ETO: wet cold. Korea: dry cold.
On the night firing thing, Marshall says that during the night, guys with carbines typically flip it to auto, dumped their 4 mags (the average he says) in opening minutes of the fight, often when the enemy was outside effective range (which he places at about 50 meters, drastically less than the text book, and putting it in the SMG range).
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yalu
Corporal 
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Post by yalu on Dec 14, 2007 13:50:40 GMT -5
To be honest we had two things going against us.
I think it was the coldest it had ever been in like over 60 years-so dating before the Korean War.
And number 2 we had those useless M1949 sleeping bags.
Coming from California I could not understand how the sky be so blue, and still so cold?
I guess the best way to describe the cold is "It wasn't cold, it hurt"
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Post by foxholetom on Dec 17, 2007 16:35:07 GMT -5
The coldest event I've been at with an m1949 bag it was 17 degrees out, but I was sleeping in an enclosed bunker with three other people, so it probably wasn't that cold for us. Its definitely not a modern modular sleep system, that's for sure, but its definitely better than a WW2 wool sleeping bag. Kind of funny, didn't really realize who Yalu was until today.  |
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Post by ssgtsattilaro on Dec 19, 2007 20:54:16 GMT -5
I have a question about weapons. Did the US Army still use the M97 and the M12 Shotgun in the Korean War? I was told they used them in WW1 and 2, and Vietnam (although without the barrel vent and bayonet.)
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Post by foxholetom on Dec 20, 2007 8:31:50 GMT -5
That's a very good question. I'd imagine MPs would use them. I would propose that even if they were used by infantry companies, it was on an infrequent basis. Marshall notes that both Thompsons and M3s were used by infantry companies, however, not on a large enough basis to provide satisfactory information for the purposes of his study.
As a strange side note about the shotguns in Vietnam, I used to have two 17" bayonets for the combat shotguns, Vietnam era made. Plastic scabbards and handgrips just like M16 bayonets. Very strange. I have been told that essentially, the 1917 bayonets went out of production before the orders during WW2 to shorten the blades. So, when Vietnam kicked off and it was decided to issue trench shotguns, they ordered bayonets from the same company, not realizing the blades would be made long.
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yalu
Corporal
Posts: 35
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Post by yalu on Dec 21, 2007 13:28:22 GMT -5
The bayonet the Army selected for their shotguns was the M1917 bayonet which was made for the Enfield Rifle which the Army selected to use as the main rifle for the AEF. After WW1 the shotgun was seen more as a Civil Disturbance (Riots) and guard fire arm. I am unsure how many shotguns a Rifle Battalion would have or if the TO&E of the Rifle Companies placed shotguns in their Arms room. www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0917218531/ref=nosim/broughsbooks/I am not aware of the removing of the bayonet lug or the heat shield. The Army had purchased two types of service weapons-the Riot gun and the Trench or Combat gun. The Riot gun can not mount a bayonet. As for weapons use it appears all the shot guns the Army contracted for in WW1 were used till they didn't work. The link to the book shows M97 used in Viet Nam. As to common use in Korea, I don't know myself, but the examples of shotgun used are in areas which gave the shotgun an 'edge' over other weapons- WW1 in the confined area of a trench the ability of the trench gun to slam fire as fast as a M1911 pistol could fire caused the Huns to file War Crime charges against(Something the 4th ID attempted to copy with FPWs in the 90's) the U.S. The other uses in the PTO and Viet Nam were examples of cases where soldiers felt the spray of the weapons gave the firer an advantage in jungle terrain. Didn't know who I was, my bad grammar is my trademark. |
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Woodard
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Post by Woodard on Feb 27, 2008 12:03:46 GMT -5
I just finished reading a report on Winter Operations, dated 3 Feb 1951, from the 1st Marine Division. They echo the M-1 and M-2 carbine issues. I love what they say about the BAR: "Individuals experienced difficulty with this weapon in direct proportion to the care it was given". For those of you who pick on me for cleaning my weapons in the car on the way home from events, now you know where I get it from.
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Post by pop401k on Mar 29, 2008 16:04:59 GMT -5
RE: carbines...
I think the problems occurred on full-auto. They were originally designed as a semi-auto weapon and later modified. So, it's not surprising that they would have had some trouble with it; especially in the severe cold weather.
Wildroot hair oil was said to be used as a substitute for gun oil in the sub-zero temperatures in korea. ... and that reminds me still have a mauser to clean from an event 3 months ago. Thaks Bren! I owe you one.
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Post by pilecap on Sept 15, 2008 11:21:32 GMT -5
That was a great thread! I'll have to go back and click on the links. My Korean War education is based on Stanton and the few vets I've been able to find.
As to the cold, what was the humidity like in the various scenarios you guys were describing?
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